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<DIV> Siarlys,</DIV>
<DIV> Are you suggesting that John do this? If you are No offense but I
disagree with this idea. We agreed that discussing religion as deep as we all
did should not be cause we were all pulling our hair out trying to make everyone
believe the way we do. I mean we all talk about the weather events ect,
Well the election is <STRONG>an current event</STRONG>. What else do you talk
about when you have people different ages with different things in common if you
can't even talk about U.S. / World events ? Although I do agree that it is
just about all some people want to talk about... I wish we could find a happy
line between. But then again if we don't have anything else to discuss what will
we do if we take politics out of it?Just My Opinion</DIV>
<DIV> Jeff</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:04:19 -0500 <A
href="mailto:gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net">gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net</A> writes:<BR>> I
expect that John may soon impose a rule that no material from any<BR>>
political campaign may be posted in the discussion group. Maybe we <BR>>
should<BR>> just say, if anyone wants to uphold a viewpoint or candidate,
they <BR>> should<BR>> be confident enough to do it in their own words. (I
am certain that <BR>> in<BR>> most matters, I can defend John Kerry
somewhat better than he can <BR>> do<BR>> himself -- and Jeff certainly
does a better job for GWB than any <BR>> Bush<BR>> campaign commercial
does).<BR>> <BR>> But fair is fair, and anyway, one thing I cannot do is
speak as a <BR>> Vietnam<BR>> veteran, which I am not. So in response to
the Swift Boat Veterans <BR>> for<BR>> Bush, I would like to offer the
following. I do not believe that any <BR>> of<BR>> us should vote for
either candidate because some number of veterans<BR>> recommends them. There
are veterans on both sides, union members on <BR>> both<BR>> sides,
teachers on both sides, clergy on both sides, etc. etc. etc. <BR>>
But<BR>> this will restore some balance.<BR>> <BR>> Siarlys<BR>>
<BR>> SHORT VERSION:<BR>> <BR>> Ten Senior Military Officials Respond
to Cheney Personal Attacks<BR>> <BR>> Ten senior military officials
released the following statement in<BR>> response to the Vice President's
attacks on John Kerry on Thursday:<BR>> <BR>> "We are deeply disappointed
by the tone and tenor of President Bush <BR>> and<BR>> Vice President
Cheney's personal attacks on John Kerry, a decorated<BR>> combat veteran who
served his country with courage and honor. John <BR>> Kerry<BR>> is
talking about his plan to address the most pressing issues facing <BR>>
our<BR>> nation - jobs, the economy, health care, the war on terror, the war
<BR>> in<BR>> Iraq. George Bush and Dick Cheney have chosen take their
campaign to <BR>> the<BR>> gutter. We call on President Bush and Vice
President Cheney to stop <BR>> the<BR>> irresponsible personal attacks and
tell us where they want to take <BR>> the<BR>> country. Tell us how they
plan to win the peace in Iraq. Tell us how <BR>> they<BR>> plan to get us
back on track with the war on terror. Tell us where <BR>> they<BR>> plan
to lead the country. The American people and our troops deserve<BR>>
better."<BR>> <BR>> Signed by: <BR>> <BR>> Admiral William J. Crowe
(United States Navy, Retired)<BR>> Admiral Stansfield Turner (United States
Navy, Retired)<BR>> General Wesley K. Clark (United States Army,
Retired)<BR>> General Merrill "Tony" A. McPeak (United States Air Force,
Retired)<BR>> General Joseph Hoar (United States Marine Corps,
Retired)<BR>> General Johnnie E. Wilson (United States Army, Retired)
<BR>> Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (United States Navy, Retired)<BR>>
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy (United States Army, Retired)<BR>>
Lieutenant General Donald Kerrick (United States Army, Retired)<BR>>
Lieutenant General Edward D. Baca<BR>> <BR>> Senator McCain has called
Bush's ads "dishonest and dishonorable." <BR>> McCain<BR>> does still
support Bush for re-election, and has campaigned with him <BR>> in<BR>>
Arizona.<BR>> <BR>> Washington, DC - General Merrill McPeak released the
following <BR>> statement<BR>> today responding to the attacks Vice
President Cheney made today in<BR>> Dayton, OH:<BR>> "Let's get the record
straight. No one disputes these facts: John <BR>> Kerry<BR>> volunteered
for active military service when many others-including<BR>> President Bush
and Vice President Cheney-found a way to avoid it. He <BR>> came<BR>>
under intense hostile fire, was wounded three times and was <BR>> decorated
for<BR>> gallantry. Do the President and Vice President really want to have
<BR>> a<BR>> debate about who is more suited to fight the war in Iraq and
the war <BR>> on<BR>> terror? Do they really want a debate about which
candidate has the<BR>> toughness to make America stronger?"<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> NOW, FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO TAKE THE TIME, HERE IS THE LONGER <BR>>
RESPONSE<BR>> FROM AN INDIVIDUAL VETERAN:<BR>> <BR>> The Guy Who Was
Actually There Speaks Out for Kerry <BR>> Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans
for Bush<BR>> By JIM RASSMANN<BR>> Wall Street Journal<BR>> August 10,
2004<BR>> I came to know Lt. John Kerry during the spring of 1969. He and his
<BR>> swift<BR>> boat crew assisted in inserting our Special Forces team
and our <BR>> Chinese<BR>> Nung soldiers into operational sites in the Cau
Mau Peninsula of <BR>> South<BR>> Vietnam. I worked with him on many
operations and saw firsthand his<BR>> leadership, courage and decision-making
ability under fire.<BR>> <BR>> On March 13, 1969, John Kerry's courage and
leadership saved my <BR>> life.<BR>> While returning from a SEA LORDS
operation along the Bay Hap River, <BR>> a<BR>> mine detonated under
another swift boat. Machine-gun fire erupted <BR>> from<BR>> both banks of
the river, and a second explosion followed moments <BR>> later.<BR>> The
second blast blew me off John's swift boat, PCF-94, throwing me <BR>>
into<BR>> the river. Fearing that the other boats would run me over, I swam
to <BR>> the<BR>> bottom of the river and stayed there as long as I could
hold my <BR>> breath.<BR>> When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left,
and I was alone <BR>> taking<BR>> fire from both banks. To avoid the
incoming fire, I repeatedly swam <BR>> under<BR>> water as long as I could
hold my breath, attempting to make it to <BR>> the<BR>> north bank of the
river. I thought I would die right there. The odds <BR>> were<BR>> against
me avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it out of <BR>> the<BR>>
river, I thought I'd be captured and executed. Kerry must have seen <BR>> me
in<BR>> the water and directed his driver, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat
<BR>> around.<BR>> Kerry's boat ran up to me in the water, bow on, and I
was able to <BR>> climb<BR>> up a cargo net to the lip of the deck. But,
because I was nearly <BR>> upside<BR>> down, I couldn't make it over the
edge of the deck. This left me <BR>> hanging<BR>> out in the open, a
perfect target. John, already wounded by the <BR>> explosion<BR>> that
threw me off his boat, came out onto the bow, exposing himself <BR>>
to<BR>> the fire directed at us from the jungle, and pulled me
aboard.<BR>> For his actions that day, I recommended John for the Silver
Star, <BR>> our<BR>> country's third highest award for bravery under fire.
I learned only <BR>> this<BR>> past January that the Navy awarded John the
Bronze Star with Combat <BR>> V for<BR>> his valor. The citation for this
award, signed by the Commander of <BR>> U.S.<BR>> Naval Forces, Vietnam,
Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, read, "Lieutenant<BR>> (junior grade) Kerry's
calmness, professionalism and great personal<BR>> courage under fire were in
keeping with the highest traditions of <BR>> the<BR>> United States Naval
Service." To this day I am grateful to John <BR>> Kerry for<BR>> saving my
life. And to this day I still believe that he deserved <BR>> the<BR>>
Silver Star for his courage.<BR>> It has been many years since I served in
Vietnam. I returned home, <BR>> got<BR>> married, and spent many years as
a deputy sheriff for Los Angeles <BR>> County.<BR>> I retired in 1989 as a
lieutenant. It has been a long time since I <BR>> left<BR>> Vietnam, but I
think often of the men who did not come home with <BR>> us.<BR>> I am
neither a politician nor an organizer. I am a retired police <BR>>
officer<BR>> with a passion for orchids. Until January of this year, the only
<BR>> public<BR>> presentations I made were about my orchid hobby. But in
this <BR>> presidential<BR>> election, I had to speak out; I had to tell
the American people <BR>> about<BR>> John Kerry, about his wisdom and
courage, about his vision and<BR>> leadership. I would trust John Kerry with
my life, and I would <BR>> entrust<BR>> John Kerry with the well-being of
our country.<BR>> Nobody asked me to join John's campaign. Why would they? I
am a<BR>> Republican, and for more than 30 years I have largely voted
for<BR>> Republicans. I volunteered for his campaign because I have seen
<BR>> John<BR>> Kerry in the worst of conditions. I know his character.
I've <BR>> witnessed<BR>> his bravery and leadership under fire. And I
truly know he will be <BR>> a<BR>> great commander in chief.<BR>> Now,
35 years after the fact, some Republican-financed Swift Boat<BR>> Veterans
for Bush are suddenly lying about John Kerry's service in<BR>> Vietnam; they
are calling him a traitor because he spoke out against <BR>> the<BR>>
Nixon administration's failed policies in Vietnam. Some of these<BR>>
Republican-sponsored veterans are the same ones who spoke out <BR>>
against<BR>> John at the behest of the Nixon administration in 1971. But this
<BR>> time<BR>> their attacks are more vicious, their lies cut deep and
are directed <BR>> not<BR>> just at John Kerry, but at me and each of his
crewmates as well. <BR>> This<BR>> hate-filled ad asserts that I was not
under fire; it questions my <BR>> words<BR>> and Navy records. This smear
campaign has been launched by people <BR>> without<BR>> decency, people
who don't understand the bond of those who serve in<BR>> combat.<BR>> As
John McCain noted, the television ad aired by these veterans is<BR>>
"dishonest and dishonorable." Sen. McCain called on President Bush <BR>>
to<BR>> condemn the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush ad. Regrettably, the
<BR>> president<BR>> has ignored Sen. McCain's advice.<BR>> Does this
strategy of attacking combat Vietnam veterans sound <BR>> familiar?<BR>>
In 2000, a similar Republican smear campaign was launched against <BR>>
Sen.<BR>> McCain. In fact, the very same communications group, Spaeth<BR>>
Communications, that placed ads against John McCain in 2000 is <BR>>
involved<BR>> in these vicious attacks against John Kerry. Texas Republican
donors <BR>> with<BR>> close ties to George W. Bush and Karl Rove crafted
this "dishonest <BR>> and<BR>> dishonorable" ad. Their new charges are
false; their stories are<BR>> fabricated, made up by people who did not serve
with Kerry in <BR>> Vietnam.<BR>> They insult and defame all of us who
served in Vietnam.<BR>> But when the noise and fog of their distortions and
lies have <BR>> cleared, a<BR>> man who volunteered to serve his country,
a man who showed up for <BR>> duty<BR>> when his country called, a man to
whom the United States Navy <BR>> awarded a<BR>> Silver Star, a Bronze
Star and three Purple Hearts, will stand tall <BR>> and<BR>> proud.
Ultimately, the American people will judge these Swift Boat<BR>> Veterans for
Bush and their accusations. Americans are tired of <BR>> smear<BR>>
campaigns against those who volunteered to wear the uniform. Swift <BR>>
Boat<BR>> Veterans for Bush should hang their heads in shame.<BR>>
<BR>> Mr. Rassmann, a retired lieutenant with the Los Angeles County <BR>>
Sheriff's<BR>> Department, served with the U.S. Army 5th Special Forces Group
in <BR>> Vietnam<BR>> 1968-69.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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