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<DIV><SPAN class=431194513-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Many
people, if not most, feel suicidal immediately after a tremendous loss, be it a
leg, the use of limbs, or a spouse of many years. But, in many
cases, if the patient survives that period, they find a new quality of life that
they never dreamed of.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=431194513-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=431194513-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>"Superman", Christopher Reeves, may well be remembered for the role he
played as an actor. But the greatest achievements of his life --
in terms of how he affected the world around him -- came after he
became a quadriplegic. So too, a NY police officer named MacDonald who
became a paraplegic after a gunshot to the neck. Also, an
American soldier who lost her leg to a roadside bomb in Iraq, now has a
business involving artificial limbs. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=431194513-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=431194513-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>To
address Siarlys' question, (according to my imperfect understanding of Torah
law) the start of a "heroic" procedure (CPR, respirator, dialysis, etc.) is
not necessarily mandated, if the person is in great pain and terminal.
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=431194513-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>But once started, they should not be stopped. If it stops by
itself, a decision might be made to not restart it. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=431194513-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Feeding tubes and
IV lines for hydration are an exception to this and must always be started
and maintained, with all due respect to Mr. Schaivo.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT size=5><FONT face=Script><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
lang=en-us>greenBubble</SPAN> </FONT></FONT></FONT></P></FONT></SPAN></B><BR>
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<DIV>My question comes down to, how far beyond natural means are we REQUIRED to
go to keep our borrowed bodies in good repair? If I remember correctly some
discussions I have had with another Orthodox Jew, death is, in the end, also a
merciful provision of G-d, because it would be an intolerable burden to live
forever. If someone is bleeding to death, it is pretty clear, we should apply a
compress and stop the bleeding, not take time asking, well, how do you feel
about the quality of your life, do you want the bleeding stopped? On the other
hand, if some clever man has invented a heart-lung machine, are we MANDATED to
keep someone on it, until they die IN SPITE OF this intensive technological
assistance with the most vital functions of the body? In between, if the leg G-d
gave me is gangrenous, must I cut it off and throw it away, in order to
save the rest? Most of us would, but if you've seen the opening of <EM>Dances
With Wolves</EM>, some officers would rather go back into combat and die than
have their leg removed. And sometimes it turns out that with truly competent
individualized care, their leg can be saved.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Like Lance, my parents have made very clear they do not want extensive
treatment to keep their bodies alive once their mind is gone. They have put it
all in writing, so it will not be up to me to decide for them, or try to work
out what they would have wanted. That is a great relief to me. But my mother did
successfully complete a course of chemo and radiation therapy, which left her
fully able to live her life for many more years.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Siarlys</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:44:53 -0700 "Discussion of the Good, Clean Funnies
List" <<A href="mailto:gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net">gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net</A>>
writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV>Wow thanks GreenBubble!<BR> </DIV>
<DIV>My cousin just ended the good fight against cancer. She had "kicked it"
and then headed back to work and it came back. So she called it quits at work.
From there on, though, the fight was down hill. Rare was the good news. But
she fought the good fight till the end. Thankfully died a peaceful death in
the hospital. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>My parents have always told us they do not want to be kept alive by
machine. If they cannot operate a "normal" life they do not want to be kept
alive via machine. As you can imagine this has given me an already pointed
opinion. Many have accused me of being cold, but my opinion is from my parents
desire not to be a vegetable in some bed. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I'd rather we see making the person's final days pleasent and enjoyable
than keeping them under a needle futily.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>G-d bless you all!</DIV>
<DIV>Lance<BR> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 8/14/06, <B class=gmail_sendername>Discussion
of the Good, Clean Funnies List</B> <<A
href="mailto:gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net">gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Frank</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Allow me to present an
opinion from the the perspective of an Orthodox Jew. (I speak
only for myself, but I think that my opinions on the subject represent the
rulings of the great rabbis of this generation.) </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Despite what anyone else
says, our bodies do not belong to us. They are on loan from G-d for
however long He sees fit to entrust them to us. We are given the
responsibility to care for it and to keep it in good repair. We do not
have the right to throw up our hands and stop taking care of it.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Under Torah Law, we
are required to do anything and everything to keep a person alive --
regardless of the so-called quality of that life -- even for a few
minutes. This includes violating the Shabbos or Kosher laws.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>That said, when a course of
treatment involves considerable risk and/or great pain, a person has the
right to choose which path to take. With chemotherapy, in
particular, you cannot know, beforehand, whether the chemo will extend
life or cut it short. It </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>is a race -- will the poison kill the cancer,
or the person, first. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>The person has to decide, together with his family, and
in consultation with his rabbi, which way to go. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P dir=ltr align=left><FONT size=5><FONT face=Script><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN lang=en-us>greenBubble</SPAN>
</FONT></FONT></FONT></P></DIV>
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size=5></FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
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</DIV>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT
size=2><B>From:</B> gcfl-discuss-bounces_milton.freund=<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:siemens.com@gcfl.net" target=_blank> siemens.com@gcfl.net</A>
[mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:gcfl-discuss-" target=_blank>gcfl-discuss-</A><SPAN><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=q>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT
size=2><SPAN> </SPAN><STRONG>Subject:</STRONG> [GCFL-discuss]
discussion topic<BR></FONT></FONT><BR> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_10d0d75cefc93143_2>
<DIV>Things have been rather quiet lately. I have a few thoughts that
maybe would get a discussion going.</DIV>
<DIV>In the last little while we have had two neighbors die after long
illnesses and many and long hospital stays and doctors visits. I now
have a brother in law who is fighting a losing battle with prostate
cancer. In each case there was no chance of recovery to full health.
</DIV>
<DIV>The question I have is this: Should we run up huge
hospital/doctor bills in and effort to stay alive when the illnesses are
terminal? What would be appropriate or not appropriate? Who
should make the decision--the person or the family or both? </DIV>
<DIV>I am struggling with this somewhat and would like to know your thoughts
and maybe get some new insight.</DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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