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<DIV>I don't see anything in the story about hate between Ishmael and Isaac.
There is a lot of hate between Hagar and Sarah. Also, it is not evident from
this text that Ishmael was the patriarch of the Arabs, although that is a
long-standing tradition from somewhere. And it is odd that God is taking so much
trouble on Ishmael's behalf if Ishmael is to give birth to an entire race that
will be enemies of God's chosen people. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then, I have doubts that the CURRENT situation in the middle east can be
traced to this scripture anyway. Arabs and Jews weren't feuding BEFORE Muhammed,
they were quite inter-mixed. Although Muhammed, for local political reasons,
persecuted, exiled or slaughtered three Jewish tribes resident in Medina, Jewish
populations enthusiastically cooperated with the Islamic conquest of previously
Christian territory, because they had been so badly persecuted by the Greek and
Roman and Visigothic Christian establishments. Only about 500 years AFTER
Muhammed did the Turkish armies who usurped the power of the Caliphs, and
certain new fundamentalist creeds of Islam that arose first among the Berbers of
western Africa, begin to seriously threaten the Christian and Jewish populations
of the Dar al-Islam, interfere with Christian pilgrimage to Jerusalem, etc. etc.
etc.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Finally, since the existence of Israel as a state (at the present time, in
its present form) is considered in some orthodox Jewish traditions to be less
than Biblical, and the Arabic-speaking population of the region includes
descendants of Greek, Persian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Hittite and several other
non-Arab peoples, probably even descendants of the ten tribes who were resettled
by the Assyrians... it really doesn't add up that this is all about Isaac and
Ishmael.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The icononclast has spoken.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Siarlys</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:35:17 -0700 "Discussion of the Good, Clean Funnies
List" <<A href="mailto:gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net">gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net</A>>
writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px">
<DIV>Thank you. That's what I was in reference to. So many don't seem to even
look at this Biblical history to the hate between Ishmael and
Isaac<BR><BR>Lance<BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Discussion of the
Good, Clean Funnies List <<A
href="mailto:gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net">gcfl-discuss@gcfl.net</A>> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>The half brothers
are Ishmael (by Abram and an<FONT size=4> Egyptian slave
Hagar) and Isaac (by Abraham and Sarah) born 13 years
apart. </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4><FONT
size=4>As with all of Scripture, this bit of history is fascinating to
me. I would love to have a window into time past and watch as
this story unfolds. I learned these Bible stories hour after
hour throughout my entire childhood (birth to teens) and still
love to read them and remember the awesome God of the Old Testament. I
regret that my children were not told these stories as a part of church
attendance. And I failed in reading them to all three. My
conscience has been pricked and I WILL read and discuss these stories with
my six-year-old daughter.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>Here is the story, and although
it appears long, it is worth the read:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>Genesis 16 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had
borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named
Hagar; so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having
children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family
through her." <BR>Abram agreed to what Sarai said. So after Abram
had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian
maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept
with Hagar, and she conceived. <BR>When she knew she was pregnant, she
began to despise her mistress. Then Sarai said to Abram, "You are
responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and
now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge
between you and me." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>"Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you
think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her. </DIV>
<DIV>The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was
the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, "Hagar,
servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you
going?" <BR>"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she
answered.</DIV>
<DIV>Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and
submit to her." The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants
that they will be too numerous to count." </DIV>
<DIV>The angel of the LORD also said to her:
<BR> "You are now with child
<BR> and you will have a son.
<BR> You shall name him
Ishmael, <BR> for the LORD has
heard of your misery.</DIV>
<DIV> He will be a wild donkey of a man;
<BR> his hand will be against everyone
<BR> and everyone's hand against him,
<BR> and he will live in hostility
<BR> toward all his brothers."
</DIV>
<DIV>She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who
sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me." That is
why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh
and Bered.</DIV>
<DIV>So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son
she had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him
Ishmael.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Genesis 17</DIV>
<DIV>When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and
said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. I will
confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your
numbers." </DIV>
<DIV>Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, "As for me, this is my
covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer
will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made
you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will
make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my
covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants
after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your
descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an
alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants
after you; and I will be their God." </DIV>
<DIV>Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you
and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my
covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to
keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo
circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and
you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days
old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought
with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether
born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised.
My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any
uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut
off from his people; he has broken my covenant."</DIV>
<DIV>God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to
call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will
surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the
mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her." </DIV>
<DIV>Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be
born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of
ninety?" And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under
your blessing!" </DIV>
<DIV>Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you
will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an
everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael,
I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will
greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I
will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish
with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." </DIV>
<DIV>When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Genesis 18</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>The LORD appeared to Abraham
near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his
tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men
standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent
to meet them and bowed low to the ground. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>He said, "If I have found favor
in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. Let a little
water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this
tree. Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then
go on your way—now that you have come to your servant."
<BR> "Very well," they answered, "do as
you say." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>So Abraham hurried into the
tent to Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three seahs of fine flour and
knead it and bake some bread." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>Then he ran to the herd and
selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to
prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had
been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them
under a tree. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>"Where is your wife Sarah?"
they asked him. <BR> "There, in the
tent," he said. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>Then the LORD said, "I
will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife
will have a son." <BR>Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the
tent, which was behind him. Abraham and Sarah were already old and well
advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah
laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my
master is old, will I now have this pleasure?" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>Then the LORD said to Abraham,
"Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I really have a child, now that I am
old?' Is anything too hard for the LORD ? I will return to you at the
appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara size=4>Sarah was afraid, so she lied
and said, "I did not laugh." <BR> But he
said, "Yes, you did laugh."</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#000080 face=Candara
size=4>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Genesis 21</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the
LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. Sarah became pregnant and bore
a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised
him. Abraham gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore
him. When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as
God commanded him. Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac
was born to him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about
this will laugh with me." And she added, "Who would have said to
Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his
old age." </DIV>
<DIV>The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham
held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian
had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of
that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in
the inheritance with my son Isaac." </DIV>
<DIV>The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his
son. But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and
your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through
Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. I will make the son of the
maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring." </DIV>
<DIV>Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and
gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with
the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba. </DIV>
<DIV>When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the
bushes. Then she went off and sat down nearby, about a bowshot away,
for she thought, "I cannot watch the boy die." And as she sat there nearby,
she began to sob. </DIV>
<DIV>God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from
heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God
has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him
by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation." </DIV>
<DIV>Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and
filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. </DIV>
<DIV>God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became
an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a
wife for him from Egypt.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>GCFL-discuss
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