[GCFL-discuss] discussion topic

Tue Aug 15 08:36:20 CDT 2006

My question comes down to, how far beyond natural means are we REQUIRED
to go to keep our borrowed bodies in good repair? If I remember correctly
some discussions I have had with another Orthodox Jew, death is, in the
end, also a merciful provision of G-d, because it would be an intolerable
burden to live forever. If someone is bleeding to death, it is pretty
clear, we should apply a compress and stop the bleeding, not take time
asking, well, how do you feel about the quality of your life, do you want
the bleeding stopped? On the other hand, if some clever man has invented
a heart-lung machine, are we MANDATED to keep someone on it, until they
die IN SPITE OF this intensive technological assistance with the most
vital functions of the body? In between, if the leg G-d gave me is
gangrenous, must I cut it off and throw it away,  in order to save the
rest? Most of us would, but if you've seen the opening of Dances With
Wolves, some officers would rather go back into combat and die than have
their leg removed. And sometimes it turns out that with truly competent
individualized care, their leg can be saved.

Like Lance, my parents have made very clear they do not want extensive
treatment to keep their bodies alive once their mind is gone. They have
put it all in writing, so it will not be up to me to decide for them, or
try to work out what they would have wanted. That is a great relief to
me. But my mother did successfully complete a course of chemo and
radiation therapy, which left her fully able to live her life for many
more years.

Siarlys

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:44:53 -0700 "Discussion of the Good, Clean Funnies
List" <gcfl-discuss at gcfl.net> writes:
Wow thanks GreenBubble!

My cousin just ended the good fight against cancer. She had "kicked it"
and then headed back to work and it came back. So she called it quits at
work. From there on, though, the fight was down hill. Rare was the good
news. But she fought the good fight till the end. Thankfully died a
peaceful death in the hospital. 

My parents have always told us they do not want to be kept alive by
machine. If they cannot operate a "normal" life they do not want to be
kept alive via machine. As you can imagine this has given me an already
pointed opinion. Many have accused me of being cold, but my opinion is
from my parents desire not to be a vegetable in some bed. 

I'd rather we see making the person's final days pleasent and enjoyable
than keeping them under a needle futily.

G-d bless you all!
Lance

On 8/14/06, Discussion of the Good, Clean Funnies List
<gcfl-discuss at gcfl.net> wrote: 
Frank
Allow me to present an opinion from the the perspective of an Orthodox
Jew.  (I speak only for myself, but I think that my opinions on the
subject represent the rulings of the great rabbis of this generation.) 

Despite what anyone else says, our bodies do not belong to us.  They are
on loan from G-d for however long He sees fit to entrust them to us.  We
are given the responsibility to care for it and to keep it in good
repair.  We do not have the right to throw up our hands and stop taking
care of it. 

Under Torah Law, we are required to do anything and everything to keep a
person alive -- regardless of the so-called quality of that life -- even
for a few minutes.  This includes violating the Shabbos or Kosher laws. 

That said, when a course of treatment involves considerable risk and/or
great pain, a person has the right to choose which path to take.  With
chemotherapy, in particular, you cannot know, beforehand, whether the
chemo will extend life or cut it short.  It  is a race -- will the poison
kill the cancer, or the person, first.  The person has to decide,
together with his family, and in consultation with his rabbi, which way
to go. 

greenBubble 

From: gcfl-discuss-bounces_milton.freund= siemens.com at gcfl.net
[mailto:gcfl-discuss-  
 Subject: [GCFL-discuss] discussion topic

Things have been rather quiet lately.  I have a few thoughts that maybe
would get a discussion going.
In the last little while we have had two neighbors die after long
illnesses and many and long hospital stays and doctors visits.  I now
have a brother in law who is fighting a losing battle with prostate
cancer.  In each case there was no chance of recovery to full health. 
The question I have is this:  Should we run up huge hospital/doctor bills
in and effort to stay alive when the illnesses are terminal?  What would
be appropriate or not appropriate?  Who should make the decision--the
person or the family or both? 
I am struggling with this somewhat and would like to know your thoughts
and maybe get some new insight.
Frank
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