[GCFL-discuss] discussion topic

Wed Aug 16 16:42:11 CDT 2006

Many people, if not most, feel suicidal immediately after a tremendous
loss, be it a leg, the use of limbs, or a spouse of many years.  But, in
many cases, if the patient survives that period, they find a new quality
of life that they never dreamed of.

"Superman", Christopher Reeves, may well be remembered for the role he
played as an actor.  But the greatest achievements of his life -- in
terms of how he affected the world around him -- came after he became a
quadriplegic.  So too, a NY police officer named MacDonald who became a
paraplegic after a gunshot to the neck.  Also, an American soldier who
lost her leg to a roadside bomb in Iraq, now has a business involving
artificial limbs.

To address Siarlys' question, (according to my imperfect understanding
of Torah law) the start of a "heroic" procedure (CPR, respirator,
dialysis, etc.) is not necessarily mandated, if the person is in great
pain and terminal.  But once started, they should not be stopped.  If it
stops by itself, a decision might be made to not restart it.  Feeding
tubes and IV lines for hydration are an exception to this and must
always be started and maintained, with all due respect to Mr. Schaivo.

greenBubble

________________________________

My question comes down to, how far beyond natural means are we REQUIRED
to go to keep our borrowed bodies in good repair? If I remember
correctly some discussions I have had with another Orthodox Jew, death
is, in the end, also a merciful provision of G-d, because it would be an
intolerable burden to live forever. If someone is bleeding to death, it
is pretty clear, we should apply a compress and stop the bleeding, not
take time asking, well, how do you feel about the quality of your life,
do you want the bleeding stopped? On the other hand, if some clever man
has invented a heart-lung machine, are we MANDATED to keep someone on
it, until they die IN SPITE OF this intensive technological assistance
with the most vital functions of the body? In between, if the leg G-d
gave me is gangrenous, must I cut it off and throw it away,  in order to
save the rest? Most of us would, but if you've seen the opening of
Dances With Wolves, some officers would rather go back into combat and
die than have their leg removed. And sometimes it turns out that with
truly competent individualized care, their leg can be saved.

Like Lance, my parents have made very clear they do not want extensive
treatment to keep their bodies alive once their mind is gone. They have
put it all in writing, so it will not be up to me to decide for them, or
try to work out what they would have wanted. That is a great relief to
me. But my mother did successfully complete a course of chemo and
radiation therapy, which left her fully able to live her life for many
more years.

Siarlys

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:44:53 -0700 "Discussion of the Good, Clean
Funnies List" <gcfl-discuss at gcfl.net> writes:

	Wow thanks GreenBubble!

	My cousin just ended the good fight against cancer. She had
"kicked it" and then headed back to work and it came back. So she called
it quits at work. From there on, though, the fight was down hill. Rare
was the good news. But she fought the good fight till the end.
Thankfully died a peaceful death in the hospital.

	My parents have always told us they do not want to be kept alive
by machine. If they cannot operate a "normal" life they do not want to
be kept alive via machine. As you can imagine this has given me an
already pointed opinion. Many have accused me of being cold, but my
opinion is from my parents desire not to be a vegetable in some bed.

	I'd rather we see making the person's final days pleasent and
enjoyable than keeping them under a needle futily.

	G-d bless you all!
	Lance

	On 8/14/06, Discussion of the Good, Clean Funnies List
<gcfl-discuss at gcfl.net> wrote:

		Frank
		Allow me to present an opinion from the the perspective
of an Orthodox Jew.  (I speak only for myself, but I think that my
opinions on the subject represent the rulings of the great rabbis of
this generation.)

		Despite what anyone else says, our bodies do not belong
to us.  They are on loan from G-d for however long He sees fit to
entrust them to us.  We are given the responsibility to care for it and
to keep it in good repair.  We do not have the right to throw up our
hands and stop taking care of it.

		Under Torah Law, we are required to do anything and
everything to keep a person alive -- regardless of the so-called quality
of that life -- even for a few minutes.  This includes violating the
Shabbos or Kosher laws.

		That said, when a course of treatment involves
considerable risk and/or great pain, a person has the right to choose
which path to take.  With chemotherapy, in particular, you cannot know,
beforehand, whether the chemo will extend life or cut it short.  It  is
a race -- will the poison kill the cancer, or the person, first.  The
person has to decide, together with his family, and in consultation with
his rabbi, which way to go.

		greenBubble

________________________________

		From: gcfl-discuss-bounces_milton.freund=
siemens.com at gcfl.net <mailto:siemens.com at gcfl.net>
[mailto:gcfl-discuss- 

		 Subject: [GCFL-discuss] discussion topic

		Things have been rather quiet lately.  I have a few
thoughts that maybe would get a discussion going.
		In the last little while we have had two neighbors die
after long illnesses and many and long hospital stays and doctors
visits.  I now have a brother in law who is fighting a losing battle
with prostate cancer.  In each case there was no chance of recovery to
full health.
		The question I have is this:  Should we run up huge
hospital/doctor bills in and effort to stay alive when the illnesses are
terminal?  What would be appropriate or not appropriate?  Who should
make the decision--the person or the family or both?
		I am struggling with this somewhat and would like to
know your thoughts and maybe get some new insight.
		Frank

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