[GCFL-discuss] Israel Without Hillary

Wed Jun 18 20:39:15 CDT 2008

I don't see anything in the story about hate between Ishmael and Isaac.
There is a lot of hate between Hagar and Sarah. Also, it is not evident
from this text that Ishmael was the patriarch of the Arabs, although that
is a long-standing tradition from somewhere. And it is odd that God is
taking so much trouble on Ishmael's behalf if Ishmael is to give birth to
an entire race that will be enemies of God's chosen people. 

Then, I have doubts that the CURRENT situation in the middle east can be
traced to this scripture anyway. Arabs and Jews weren't feuding BEFORE
Muhammed, they were quite inter-mixed. Although Muhammed, for local
political reasons, persecuted, exiled or slaughtered three Jewish tribes
resident in Medina, Jewish populations enthusiastically cooperated with
the Islamic conquest of previously Christian territory, because they had
been so badly persecuted by the Greek and Roman and Visigothic Christian
establishments. Only about 500 years AFTER Muhammed did the Turkish
armies who usurped the power of the Caliphs, and certain new
fundamentalist creeds of Islam that arose first among the Berbers of
western Africa, begin to seriously threaten the Christian and Jewish
populations of the Dar al-Islam, interfere with Christian pilgrimage to
Jerusalem, etc. etc. etc.

Finally, since the existence of Israel as a state (at the present time,
in its present form) is considered in some orthodox Jewish traditions to
be less than Biblical, and the Arabic-speaking population of the region
includes descendants of Greek, Persian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Hittite and
several other non-Arab peoples, probably even descendants of the ten
tribes who were resettled by the Assyrians... it really doesn't add up
that this is all about Isaac and Ishmael.

The icononclast has spoken.

Siarlys

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:35:17 -0700 "Discussion of the Good, Clean Funnies
List" <gcfl-discuss at gcfl.net> writes:
Thank you. That's what I was in reference to. So many don't seem to even
look at this Biblical history to the hate between Ishmael and Isaac

Lance

On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:24 PM, Discussion of the Good, Clean Funnies
List <gcfl-discuss at gcfl.net> wrote:

The half brothers are Ishmael (by Abram and an Egyptian slave Hagar) and
Isaac (by Abraham and Sarah) born 13 years apart.  As with all of
Scripture, this bit of history is fascinating to me.  I would love to
have a window into time past and watch as this story unfolds.  I learned
these Bible stories hour after hour throughout my entire childhood (birth
to teens) and still love to read them and remember the awesome God of the
Old Testament.  I regret that my children were not told these stories as
a part of church attendance.  And I failed in reading them to all three. 
My conscience has been pricked and I WILL read and discuss these stories
with my six-year-old daughter.
Here is the story, and although it appears long, it is worth the read:

Genesis 16 
Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an
Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; so she said to Abram, "The LORD has
kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I
can build a family through her." 
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. So after Abram had been living in Canaan
ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave
her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she
conceived. 
When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. Then
Sarai said to Abram, "You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I
put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she
despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me." 
"Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you
think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her. 
The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the
spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, "Hagar, servant of
Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?" 
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.
Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit
to her." The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they
will be too numerous to count." 
The angel of the LORD also said to her: 
       "You are now with child 
       and you will have a son. 
       You shall name him Ishmael, 
       for the LORD has heard of your misery.
       He will be a wild donkey of a man; 
       his hand will be against everyone 
       and everyone's hand against him, 
       and he will live in hostility 
       toward all his brothers." 
She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who
sees me," for she said, "I have now seen the One who sees me." That is
why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; it is still there, between Kadesh
and Bered.
So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she
had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

Genesis 17
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said,
"I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. I will confirm my
covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." 
Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, "As for me, this is my covenant
with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be
called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of
many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you,
and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an
everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you
for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your
descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an
alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your
descendants after you; and I will be their God." 
Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and
your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my
covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to
keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo
circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old
must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought
with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether
born in your household or bought with your money, they must be
circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will
be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to
call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely
give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of
nations; kings of peoples will come from her." 
Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be
born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of
ninety?" And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your
blessing!" 
Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you
will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an
everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I
have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and
will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve
rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will
establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next
year." 
When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him. 

Genesis 18
The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was
sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham
looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried
from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 
He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your
servant by. Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your
feet and rest under this tree. Let me get you something to eat, so you
can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your
servant." 
      "Very well," they answered, "do as you say." 
So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three
seahs of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread." 
Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to
a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk
and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While
they ate, he stood near them under a tree. 
"Where is your wife Sarah?" they asked him. 
      "There, in the tent," he said. 
Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next
year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." 
Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind
him. Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and
Sarah was past the age of childbearing. So Sarah laughed to herself as
she thought, "After I am worn out and my master is old, will I now have
this pleasure?" 
Then the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Will I
really have a child, now that I am old?' Is anything too hard for the
LORD ? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah
will have a son." 
Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, "I did not laugh." 
      But he said, "Yes, you did laugh."

Genesis 21
Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for
Sarah what he had promised. Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to
Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. Abraham
gave the name Isaac to the son Sarah bore him. When his son Isaac was
eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as God commanded him. Abraham
was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about
this will laugh with me." And she added, "Who would have said to Abraham
that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old
age." 
The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham
held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian
had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of
that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share
in the inheritance with my son Isaac." 
The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. But
God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your
maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through
Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. I will make the son of the
maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring." 
Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and
gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off
with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of
Beersheba. 
When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the
bushes. Then she went off and sat down nearby, about a bowshot away, for
she thought, "I cannot watch the boy die." And as she sat there nearby,
she began to sob. 
God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from
heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God
has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him
by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation." 
Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and
filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. 
God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an
archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife
for him from Egypt.

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